This is the team blog of EFCA Samaritan Way. In short, we are part of the Evangelical Free Church of America denomination that exists to make our mission statement, “Multiplying Healthy Churches Among All People” a true statement, especially those last two words: all people. That’s pretty ambitious, we know. And here’s the part we focus on – reversing divisions. The things that divide people are numerous, but there are some usual suspects now that we’re in the 21st century: race, class, gender, sexuality, and generation. Here’s the way we work at reversing division – we create opportunities for learning about “the other” with whomever wants to learn. We want to walk with you on the journey of reconciliation and we want to help you go the distance.
If you’re looking to add diversity to your church staff; trying to navigate difficult conversation about immigration at your church; trying to minister to the homeless or gay community; we can walk with you. We can help teach a biblical foundation for getting your entire church to understand reconciliation, justice and compassion as central to the gospel message of Jesus Christ. We can do a workshop or a Samaritan Way weekend to coach your leaders, EFCA church or not. But at the very least, we’re trying to walk this out ourselves in the brave new blogosphere.
We already have a website, a Facebook page, Twitter….why a blog? Because reconciliation doesn’t fit in 140 characters and doesn’t work well on a static web page – it happens in real-time. We invite you to join the conversation!
Brian S. Chan
David Park
Alvin Sanders
Reconciliation 101 
December 8th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
I posted a comment on FaceBook. I do not think that was the proper venue for it and I will remove it if you wish.
Please let me say that I am encouraged by this blog and your other sites. I feel it is a place where we can engage in serious exchange without the typical poor behavior exhibited by all parties concerned. I am not trying to convince you as part of the so called LGBT agenda (an interesting topic in itself). I just want to talk honestly without pretense. As my comment states I am a transgender MTF and a Free Church member, at least I think I still am. I do love The Lord Jesus Christ, but I get the feeling from some even those I had been close to that they would prefer I not make that claim. Please read…
(Reposted from FaceBook)
I’m asking this with respect and with the expectation of an honesty both from you and me. What I’m trying to say is my question is serious and it intends no harm. Technically I am still a member of the EFCA, but I am also transgender. I came to the Lord in 1979. Later I enrolled at TEDS, but I did not finish. It was very difficult to confide that in one form or another since age three I have identified with women. We can at this point get side tracked into the” God does not make mistakes” or “That is a choice” discussions, but in my experience that only serves to deflect and depersonalize. At the end of the day we are talking about people. In my case there is no question that as a Christian I did not want this, but after 40+ years of trying with both Christian and non-Christian professionals nothing has changed. There has to be many more like me in the EFCA. I present as female and am in process to transition. Once I started this process I felt a strong desire to reconnect with my EFCA heritage. The surprising thing for almost all is not that I have changed, but that I have not changed at all! I was always like this, but now am not afraid to show myself as I really am.
I feel a desire to help all of you understand and to encourage a climate where other like me, other Christians, can be unafraid to be honest with you and themselves as well as their devotion to our Lord. I realized just before I dropped out of TEDS that I was ineligible for ministry. For all the years prior in the EFCA I felt like I was lying and hypocritical in my claims as a Christ Follower. God always knew me, but I was afraid to let His church know me.
Question (finally!) Do you understand this to be a real issue and if so, what steps are being taken to encourage honesty without judgment?
For many years I had not set foot in a church let alone an EFCA church. It took Samaritans in the form of liberal churches most of all A Unitarian Universalist congregation that ironically is across the street from TEDS to finally help me feel accepted by God. I have joked with the pastor that I feel like an Evangelical in exile.
Thank you
Kim Schroeder
December 8th, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Kim, thanks for the comment and the desire for dialogue. I agree with you that this blog might be a better place for dialogue than on the Facebook page. Either you or I can remove it there but I would like to continue the conversation with you here on this blog. I’ve done some research on the question on LGBTQ but would like post on a post soon, repost your comment and begin a dialogue with you. Does that sound ok?
December 9th, 2011 at 10:14 am
That sounds like a good plan to me. The post has been deleted from FaceBook. I want to make clear I in no way represent any organized effort by those in the LGBT community. I am very gratefully supported by many in that community, but they do not speak for me either.
I guess this is a good place to start. Most transgender persons like me feel we are simply men or women. Transgender is a label and a designation we need sometimes so that we can expose bigotry and secure the same protections and rights that are taken for granted by all others. The problem with labels is they create a layer of separation. It is much easier to deal with a concept, movement, or “agenda” than is to deal directly with a person. You face this daily in news articles when the word “fundamental” is used. We both understand there is a big difference between Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, but like it or not this is how the world refers to you. If Consider that woman fired from Macy’s I think you can get the picture. Does she represent your views?
Thanks
Kim
December 9th, 2011 at 10:17 am
…continued (hit post too soon)….
I doubt it, but i’d have a very difficult time explaining this to many LGBT’s
December 9th, 2011 at 11:07 am
Kim, I agree with you that labels are problematic.
We would all like the label–saint vs. sinner; or saved vs. lost. And I think we use these terms too lightly with no sense of gravity or perhaps too much gravity.
In any case, I’m interested to hear more about your journey. If you’re looking for the short answer, theologically and biblically, from the EFCA perspective, I’m afraid you may not be very pleased, but you probably knew that already. You want dialogue without judgment, and I want to hear how you wrestle with your faith and sexuality. I’ve read recently that the goal of the Christian is not heterosexuality, but Christlikeness. So I don’t want the “labels” that you’re talking about to inhibit a real discussion where we can dialogue about the place of faith, not simply as an argument for civil rights or protections, but about you, the real you.
So tell me, when did you realize that you were different. When did you begin to explore those aspects? And what was the dialogue with God in the midst of that?
December 9th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Your reply is greatly appreciated and I believe we have already accomplished something. You asked about my faith and sexuality. There is a difference between sexuality and gender or gender identification. As a point my first memories of being different were at age 3. It was funny actually in a good sense. I parted my hair down the middle as best as I could and raised my voice an octave. In my world only women parted their hair down the middle and I was aware that women had a higher pitch when they spoke. A 3 year old attempting falsetto is an amusing picture. For me at that point in my life sexuality was not something I was aware of, however gender association was. It was clear to me men and women were different and I had a leaning. As for my walk with God at age 3 I was aware of right and wrong and remember feeling guilty when I knew I did something wrong. I even remember using the word guilty. I do not wrestle with my sexuality that is a completely separate issue. However, I believe when I was active in EFC issues that I call gender related were lumped in with homosexuality. Now I hear the words sexual immorality used in place of homosexuality.
A man I respected greatly once said to me on theology; “If it is good it is not new; if it is new it’s no good”. I do not consider theology or doctrine to be static. Theology is a creation of man. Throughout the history of the Christian church theology has evolved to deal with issues that previous generations did not have to deal with. Please understand I am NOT talking truth changing or God/the God concept evolving. Our understanding is not perfect, but we continue to strive for better understanding. God never changes, but we face new challenges every day. Consider the ordination of women issue. At the beginning we as a denomination ordained women. Later we stopped, but from what I understand we have started ordaining women again. Did a truth change? Of course not, but something drove us to rethink twice over a church position that at other times was just accepted with little challenge. In this light I have no problem at all hearing the EFCA perspective. In fact I’ve tried on numerous occasions to get the bottom line the EFCA position on transgender. Please tell me what it is.
It was not my intent to get personal, but I have no problem with doing so if you are OK with responding in kind. I’ll include a letter to my pastor at Beacon Hill in Monroe. I think this will explain it well. I beg to differ on the importance of civil rights issues. Protections are about me personally when they affect me. As a Christian I am know by my acts as well as my words. Both communicate a message. The way I express myself now is the real me. At about 12 years I cultivated masculine affectations to hide who I really am. This lasted up until a year and a half ago when I decided to just express myself honestly. My wife and I did this together. She has helped me more than any other person as we continue to grow through our life together. We pray at least twice a day and usually around 4 times a day.
I guess it is my turn. When people you knew perhaps even Christians came forward how did you feel about them and how did your relationship change? How many LGBT friends have you had over the years and how were those friendships different that that with other non-believers?
The main vocation, as evidenced by your focus toward the end of your comment, of a Christian is to spread the gospel to all whenever possible and engage others for this end. Can you explain why you may think the LGBT community acts in like manor to make LGBT converts? Have you noticed that the word homosexual is more often in Christian circles whereas those outside of the church use the word gay? Is there significance? Does “gay” carry with it a perceived acceptance by its use?
Letter to my pastor:
Hello Wayne,
I hope you are doing well. From what I’ve heard you are very happy in your teaching ministry. You always were a great teacher and never afraid to entertain a challenge. These qualities, where I may have them, I owe to your examples. I am very happily married and live in Grayslake, IL. I wish the work situation were better, but I am doing alright.
Many people question my motivations even a very close old friend you and I have in common, but I have been trying very hard to be honest to all. I find it most difficult confessing myself to the ones who knew me best. I am quite frankly afraid that my honestly would be looked upon as an offensive. This is not my intent, but I do hope my confession would give cause for deeper understanding.
I have struggled with something in one form or another since I was 3 years old. I believed myself cured by God’s grace many times. At Trinity, in desperation, I became part of a study that hoped to correct an imbalance by introducing an anti-depressant. Within a few days of taking the medication I lost the deep depression I had carried for many years. You may not remember, but at Beacon Hill you noticed the unshakable guilt I lived with. One Sunday morning you brought tears to my eyes for your compassion when as part of a point on grace defeating sin you said, “Kurt Schroeder, you are forgiven!” I cannot tell you just how much my church family meant to me. However, I was still too afraid to openly discuss what I felt inside me. Soon after taking the medication I was very happy, but it did the opposite of its intended purpose. It was supposed to help me be what I wanted more than anything. I just wanted my recurring sin to go away and I did not care how! I realized after a few months on the meds that I was ineligible for ministry in the Evangelical Free Church of America. I dropped out of TEDS and in a fit of exceptionally poor behavior proceeded to blame everything around me as the reason I dropped out. In truth there was no blame to be had not even with me. My grades were poor and were a reflection of my attitude toward my studies. I was in no place to be focusing on study with so much conflict going on inside me.
Wayne, I have identified with women almost all of my life. I am transgender. Please understand that I do not expect you to accept this as something God condones. However, I cannot accept the conclusions of so many who claim this is a choice. I make no claim for any other transgender person. I do not dispute those who claim they have been cured and live as God always intended. I am not only happy for them I am envious where such claims are true. I just know that never happened for me and I tried very hard with the help and prayer of others including Christian professionals. The impression I have received over the years from Evangelical sources is that transgender behavior is a deviant lust filled lifestyle espoused by those having given in to carnal desires. Again, speaking only for myself, this was not part of a sexual ritual. Lust had as much to do with the way I am at 3 years old as it does now. Being transgender and hearing so many Christians including Doctor Dobson say I chose this goes beyond the ridiculous. No sane person would ever want this for themselves. I am very sure some dress as the opposite sex as part of a sexual experience, but these people rarely feel any desire to present as that gender in public life. I do not wish this on anyone. No one I know who considers themselves transgender has any interest in evangelizing or making converts. Speaking for myself, I have no desire to be identified as transgender. I just want to be just another in conspicuous middle aged woman shopping for groceries.
I started this letter as an attempt to confess myself. I hope you can understand that listening to inaccurate commentary by those in the public eye claiming authority encourages a desire to dispel untruths. My main point here is to confess to you personally that I was too afraid to tell you about this. Wayne, you were uncommon in that you never spoke with rage about the sexual deviants hoping to destroy America. I remember Trig Landrew(sp) spoke once when you were away and I almost passed when he in passionately condemned the deviants; when I felt he so rightly condemned me. I agreed with him and felt God would always be angry with me and I felt He should be! I was always turning my back on God by making a choice to feel the way I did. However, you were someone deserving of trust. I doubt it would have made a difference, but that is not the point. You deserved my trust and my honesty. You also had a right to know as my pastor. I am sorry.
For a long time I felt that living the way I felt would mean I would have to stop being a Christian. I felt God hated me, but I never once hated Him nor was angry with Him. I am a Christian still. I live as a woman and seek to serve Him as best I can. This takes the form of defending His church from attacks by many LGBT’s I encounter. Some hate me for this and express quite clearly. In this many LGBT’s and Evangelical Christians have common cause. Many on one side say I cannot be a Christian and live as a woman. Many on the other side consider me unacceptable where I defend God’s people. If you close your eyes you’d have a difficult time deciding which side was condemning.
Thanks Wayne, you were always good to me.
In God’s love Kurt/Kim
December 10th, 2011 at 12:03 am
Kim,
Just to be honest, I feel like you’re dumping on me here. I understand you want this question answered, but first of all, I don’t speak necessarily the official position of the EFCA on transgender. If you want the definitive word on that, you’ll have to go above my pay grade. I’m interested in dialogue and want to know how you’ve arrived where you are and why you feel like maintaining membership within the EFCA is important to you. This probably sounds like a cop-out, but I’m less concerned with the “official” theological stance of the EFCA as I am the ways we practice what we believe. We don’t have to agree for us be hospitable. We don’t have lead with our sexual identities when we engage one another. That’s what I mean by faith is not primarily about civil rights. Jesus did not come to earth, die on a cross, and rise again for you to have civil rights (I mean, I’m sure he appreciates that, but that’s not it.). 🙂
Faith means something more — it’s the existential question as to why we’re here, how we live while we’re here, what we’re called to while we’re here. When you say that LGBTs reach out to LGBTs, I didn’t know that, but I imagine a great deal of that has something to do with many churches’ failure to give acceptance easily. I understand that LGBTs have felt ostracized and oppressed, especially by many in the church with vocal and adamant opposition. I don’t know what to say. Even if I don’t understand same-sex attraction or transgender desires, I don’t think all the vitriol is helpful or necessary. I think it’s because of fear and/or self-righteousness. But I think really it would behoove both sides to understand how deeply our brokenness goes. As I said before, heterosexuality is not the goal of the Christian life, it is to be like Christ.
That being said, I don’t want to dismiss your struggle. I haven’t had many friends who were LGBT. No one has come out to me. I didn’t back away from anyone. I’ve worked with gays and lesbians, but we were never really that close. I know many LGBT people feel judged by the church and I have been asked the question, “do you think I’m a sinner?” To which I respond, we are all sinners. We all need Jesus. Here’s my question to you, let’s not make this an abstract discussion about what should be done with LGBT and whether or not they are entitled to seats in the church; let’s talk about you and how you’re walking with God and living out His purposes for you in your life. If that’s not happening for you in the EFCA, I understand, there are a lot of things that aren’t up to par yet at the EFCA, but I either work toward it or I walk with someone who does. I don’t know if you’re feeling led by God to be an advocate for this issue in the EFCA, but as far as I know there hasn’t been a large groundswell of LGBT from within the denomination. But again, what are you really looking for?
December 11th, 2011 at 8:11 pm
I apologize. It was not my intent to empty a dump truck on your front lawn, but I can see the truth in your observation. I do have specific questions on EFCA policy and you may not be the right person, but you are at least conversing with me. I have tried to discuss such things with a man, an EFCA pastor I still consider my best friend. However, from his reaction and unfounded accusations it is clear he doubts my integrity if not my sanity. I want to know EFCA policy, but I also want to share. David, with respect, I believe there are a lot of things you and others may not understand. I ask for your forgiveness because I am about to dump on you again. Your question, “why you feel like maintaining membership within the EFCA” is not the question you should be asking, but I get asked it more often than I’d like. So far no one has asked what would make me leave. It is like I am being pushed away. Please forgive me, but at times I feel those I consider my brothers and sisters assume I am no longer a Christian and that I work to oppose them.
David, I sincerely do not doubt your motivation. I know you desire to serve God and have a genuine concern for the physical and spiritual welfare of others. I see with certainty you have a concern for my relationship with Our Lord. I have to smile when I notice how you are leading our discussion to a personal level. In that spirit I hope you will accept my desires are genuine and allow time to give evidence of my claim. Reconciliation is a good thing. I would like to participate if I may and you are always welcome to ask me anything you would like.
I can do no more that give my spin on things from my perspective and your last sentence gives a good opportunity: “what are you really looking for?” I would like to be accepted as the person I am, the person I always was, but for now I can give voice to your observation in the second to the last sentence. I suspect there is no “ground swell” of LGBT’s because we just stop going to church. One I started living openly as a woman the message from my Christian contemporaries was clear; I had to stop being a Christian. I do not see evidence saying I had to stop being a Christian, but so far no one is willing to discuss it.
You asked again about what brought me to my decision. My entire previous post and the letter covered all that, but if I misunderstood what you are asking please explain.
David, as I end this note I would like to ask with a sincere heart if you would rather we end this dialog? I am comfortable as I am and I do not expect to change, but I can understand that if by my saying that you might not feel motivated to continue.
Thanks
Kim
December 12th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
Interesting point to end on, Kim. So “dialogue” is often seen as a “debate”, I understand and I’m sure you’re tired of that. Of people trying to convince of the error of your ways, etc. Me too. So let’s not debate, let’s just talk life and following Christ.
I’m sorry about your friend and EFCA pastor who hurt you. I’m sure that while you believe you were revealing yourself to him to be honest and open, it may still feel like a shock and a bit unfair to those who meet you and understand you to be a certain person. But give it time – sexuality and sexual identity is a difficult conversation to have with many people, even with ourselves, it takes time to be honest, sometimes mores with those we care about most. To your point about EFCA “policy,” I think you are probably right, in short, the posture of the denomination to the LGBT crowd is “welcoming, but not affirming” and it’s that “but” part that leads to people leaving the church altogether.
To be fair, you mentioned earlier that you found acceptance in an universalist unitarian church. I guess I was confused as to where and why the EFCA fit in, not necessarily to imply that you are not welcome or that you couldn’t be Christian. Following Christ isn’t always synonymous with the church, but I know people make that assumption.
The difficulty I think you’re skirting around is the Bible and the tension it has with sexuality and sexual behavior. There are difficult verses regarding homosexual acts and although many “liberal” denominations contextualize them away, that’s a difficult move to make and hold Scripture in high regard at the same time. Right? If I were to say, the Sistine Chapel is the epitome of art and yet I contend that it needs a dab or two here or there, or perhaps even a re-working, then is it really the epitome of art? But the truth of the matter is that they are very difficult texts. And it’s not easy to know what to do with them. Just being honest here. Some people find it easy to dismiss, but others read Is.30, where the Israelites tell the prophets, “Give us not more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things…” and wonder if we’re not doing that with difficult texts of Scripture. The Bible doesn’t answer a lot of questions for us, but I believe it does answer the most important ones.
Sexuality and sexual identity are very personal and very subjective, so I’m sure it’s difficult not discuss it without getting personal, but I assume that with most things that were created by God to be a gift, the world and all that is in it experiences brokenness and “a fall” of sorts, in this case, even the most intimate of things. But I think the great hope is that there is more to life than just sexuality and even our sexual identities. That’s just a part of who we are, not the whole. I’m Asian American and male, but that’s not all of who I am, right?
But that being said, I think all the various parts of me are learning to surrender to Christ — the male side of me, the Asian American side of me. They all have to be put on the cross at some point. I don’t always get to choose, but they all do. And the reality is that we are all learning to follow Christ. Despite the fact that Christian is a static word, a title that doesn’t quite convey the transformative process.
So here’s my next question for you: what’s your favorite book of the Bible? And why?
December 12th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
1 Corinthians is my favorite because it has a message of unity and gave specifics about behavior. I had memorized it in my early 20’s. Paul spoke with compassion, but he spoke directly when it came to ethical issues. Paul reveals much about himself and his own walk. He wishes all were like him, but does not command it. He could be interpreted as using himself as a best example and giving concession to those who cannot reach his level of commitment. I feel he is just being honest and reviling something personal. He was comfortable with his walk and saw it afforded flexibility by not being encumbered. 6 is a hot spot. The context was unity and ethical behavior. It is of course quoted to me often. What does he mean by these and under what circumstance? Thieves, drunks and the greedy are included, but not very often emphasized as caring the same weight. I think of the elder who took a very strong stand on dancing as immoral due to sexual suggestiveness, but was seen on more than one occasion trying to sell Amway on Sunday morning even after the service started. He was quick to point out 1Cor6. As with other parts of scripture I do not like 1Cor6 and how it is being used. It does not mean I consider it untrue or uninspired, it just means I’m honest. I don’t like God commanding the Israelites to commit genocide either. I believe God honors honesty over appearances. As a point of interest this is what lead me to consider going to an EFCA church in my town shortly after I came to faith. People were free to question commonly held truth. The pastor at that church welcomed controversial issues and encouraged debate.
With my friend I was hurt, but even more so disappointed. I was a part of his coming to accept Christ as Savior and I brought him to that church. This does not mean anything beyond my expressing how close we were. We debated many issues with our pastor and others. We each had our opinions, but we were always willing to listen. I offered a challenge in the manor we were accustomed and used an example, but with an exasperated sigh he discounted the example as foolish. I had not told him, but the example was one I remembered from Kenneth Kantzer’s systematic theology class at TEDS. I know you prefer not to debate issues, but I’m curiosity has got the best of me. In class we were discussing the writings of Karl Barth and some interesting challenges concerning what is necessary to be saved. At times we can get caught up in issues that may be important, but are not a factor where it comes to accepting grace. We considered Hell. Does one need to believe in hell as a prerequisite for salvation? Likewise, would God condemn one to hell because they do not believe in it? I think you see where I was going. Does one have to stop being transgender before they accept Christ as savior? For me specifically the question is because I could not stop being transgender whether openly living as such or not, was I ever saved in the first place? Being a Calvinist I have an opinion here, but does my living honestly as I always felt I was mean I am no longer a Christian? I submit the answers are no and no. I do not see evidence to the contrary unless all Alcoholics and all those in the cult of Amway are likewise in with me.
December 13th, 2011 at 10:19 am
David, I’m going to be direct this morning. I have a lot of problems. I have said mean things about the EFCA and Evangelicalism in general. I have said many unfair things. I have accused the Church in general of being uncaring and mean spirited. To back my claims I had many examples and could point to specific activities as if pointing out those extremes of bad behavior could justify my attitude toward the whole. I was unfair and I confess it. For the past 20 years or so I have not read Scripture or attended church. I still have not gone to an EFCA church and I may never. To say I do not have an agenda is foolish. To say I do not know the EFCA position on LGBT issues as evidenced by the actions of those I have known would be lying.
I am not sure if it is a good idea to continue. Most all I know say I should not and they question the point as well as my motivations. I want you, the Church, accept me as I am and I at least wanted to give it a shot. I did not wish to tear down anything, but I did want to challenge your understanding as you challenged mine. This was my agenda and it is unfair to demand we follow that path if you do not wish it. I respect you have an agenda of your own, but I cannot say I want to follow it in a public forum. It is not that I have nothing to learn from you. I feel that some of your queries could get deeply personal. I would rather do this one on one with a pastor and with my Christian counselor. I am doing that, but again I do not wish to do so publicly. I hope you understand.
Kim
December 14th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Kim,
I understand. I’m sorry for the pain and the rejection you have felt in EFCA churches. Thanks for being honest with me and acknowledging the agendas we both may have. You are right in a very real sense that EFCA churches need to improve in their acceptance of other people and lifestyles, I work at trying to help people understand the “other side.” It doesn’t necessarily mean that we will find our starting points in Scripture, but the goal is to find our ending points there. Please hear me earnestly when I say you are a very strong person and in many ways, your wrestling with your self and sexuality perhaps puts you at a place a self-awareness that many of us lack, but as with all things “self” (self-esteem, self-control, etc.), we all need to be cautious of self-righteousness. We tend to think of the sins we ourselves do not wrestle with as true sins, whereas the things we wrestle with a great deal, we rationalize them away as if they were nothing (or everything, ironically. another way of making sin disappear is to make it appear everywhere), particularly if we ourselves were sinned against. You face bigotry from churches and rightly point out the plank in the evangelical eye. But don’t let the speck of self-righteousness be the speck in yours. We must all learn to live with one another as fellow sinners — redeemed by a work of wonder and grace that we can all barely comprehend, regardless of sexual orientation. We can all barely grasp what it means to be loved by a God who should have nothing to do with us if we were to be honest with ourselves. All else is presumption. But I pray for healing for your relationships with that EFCA pastor and friend. I pray that you might find a home in a church, but more than anything, I pray that you would grow in Christ and be at home with him. Blessings Kim on your journey.
December 14th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
David,
Your last post was very kind and greatly appreciated. I am not the easiest person to get along with at times. Thank you for your patience.
Bigotry is hypocritical for it plays no favorite and welcomes all to its cold embrace. I have observed that those who decry intolerance the most are all too often themselves intolerant. We are all guilty of it at one point or another.
I appreciated your willingness to engage me and you have my thanks. You have my Email and you are always welcome to send me a note or two. I pray the love of The Lord be with you always.
Kim